On 23/04/15 04:07, James Slagle wrote: >On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 01:20:25PM -0500, Jacob Liberman wrote: >> >> >>On 4/22/15 11:46 AM, Ben Nemec wrote: >>>>I am very concerned about this single call action which is doing all the >>>>>magic in the background but gives user zero flexibility. It will not >>>>>help neither educate users about the project. >>>Our job is not to educate the users about all the implementation details >>>of the deployment process. Our job is to write a deployment tool that >>>simplifies that process to the point where an ordinary human can >>>actually complete it. In theory you could implement the entire >>>deployment process in documentation without any code whatsoever, and in >>>fact upstream devtest tries to do exactly that: >>>http://docs.openstack.org/developer/tripleo-incubator/devtest_overcloud.html >>> >>>And let me tell you - as someone who has tried to follow those docs - >>>it's a horrible user experience. Fortunately we have a tool in >>>instack-undercloud that rolls up those 100+ steps from devtest into >>>maybe a dozen or so steps that combine the logically related bits into >>>single commands. Moving back toward the devtest style is heading in the >>>wrong direction IMNSHO. >>> >>>Does instack-undercloud/rdo-manager need to be more flexible? >>>Absolutely. Does that mean we should throw out our existing code and >>>convert it to documentation? I don't believe so. >>> >> >>Definitely get input from our field folks on this topic. >> >>You are basically recapitulating the entire argument against packstack (not >>flexible enough, obscured details) that brought about foreman installer (too >>many parameters and steps) and then staypuft (difficult to automate, etc.) >> >>Up to this point our field folks have mostly ignored our installers for all >>but the simplest POCs. >> >>My personal belief is that a well documented and complete CLI is an absolute >>necessity to tackle and automate real world deployments. A big reason >>Foreman failed IMO is because it did not have hammer out of the box. I >>submitted the original RFE to include hammer but it didnt make it until >>foreman was dead. >> >>A GUI and unified deployment scripts are nice to have but are not >>replacements for complete CLIs + docs. > >I'm just replying to the thread, I'm not picking on your specific point :-). >Your feedback is really good and something that we need to keep in mind. > >However, this discussion isn't actually about POC vs production vs flexibility. >That's pretty much a strawman to the discussion given that the 'openstack >flavor' command is already there, and will always be there. No one is saying >you shouldn't use it, or we shouldn't document why and how we use flavors. Or >for that matter that any amount of customization via flavors wouldn't >eventually be possible. But this is our primary focus - production ready flow. Which we should test as soon as we can and it is still not out there. So this discussion actually is about it. And also about production ready people's user experience. >There's also going to be a big difference between our end user documentation >that just gets you any repeatable process (what we have now), and advanced >workflows we might document for the field or consultants, or hide behind a "not >officially supported without RH consultants" banner. End user documentation is not what we have now. What we have now is very narrow restricted flow for people to get started with 1 controller and 1 compute -- which is just POC. With zero knowledge of what is happening in the background. >Moreso, the point is that: > >The shell script we currently have, the proposed Python code, and the proposed >documentation change all are 100% equivalent in terms of functionality and >flexiblity. The proposed documentation change doesn't even offer anything other >than replacing 1 command with 6, with no explanation of why or how you might >customize them (that's why I say it's worse). First of all -- reason why it *has* to run 6 commands is how was written the instack deployment script which requires 3 flavors with very specific name for each role, despite the fact that one of the roles is not deployed. If user follows regular way (when we get out of the deployment scripts), he would have to create *one* single flavor (2 commands) and in these commands is specifically listed what features are being registered with the flavor (ram, disk, vcpu). So it is not hidden from user. This is very important. If you even want to improve this flow, we should suggest flavors to user and improve unified CLI. >Here's really my main point I guess: > >If it takes 12 (eventually) CLI commands to create flavors, do we expect people >to *type* those into their shell? I hope not. > >Let's suppose we document it that way...in my experience the most likely thing >someone would do (especially if they're repeating the process) would be to >copy/paste those 12 commands out of the documentation, and write their own >shell script/deployment tool to execute them, or just copy/paste them >straight into their shell, while perhaps customizing them along the way. > >That would certainlly be a totally valid way to do it. If user has homogeneous environment, he can have just one simple flavor. If he has heterogeneous or he wants to get more specific, he will take additional actions (create more flavors or deal with edeploy matching). You are overstating - at the moment the problem with those 6 commands is really how the instack scripts are written. So that I could get us out of scripts and replace flavors script I had to create three flavors instead of one. >So...why don't we just give them that shell script to start off with? >Better yet, let's write something we'd actually like to support long term (in >Python) and is just as flexible, perhaps taking json (or more likely YAML tbh) >as input, with a nice Python program to log stuff and offer --help's along the >way. Something that's actually supportable so we could ask: What input did you >provide to this tool and what was the output? VS. How did you customize these >12 commands, now go please run these other commands so we can figure out what >happened. Yes, let's write something what we support longer term. Didn't we agree it is unified CLI? Didn't we agree we should support and improve it? Feeding another yaml file to create a single flavor? I disagree that this is better user experience. >I'm already seeing developers and external people saying that it's too much >as-is and that they're going to write custom tooling to help out. Why wouldn't >we just offer that already (especially when 90% of the code is already written >upstream), and still be able to keep all the flexibility, as long we actually >document how it works, and what commands you'd run to customize it? Are these developers real world users in production environments? Ask field guys. The feedback you are getting is from people who are running these commands 20 times a day. Then it is valid point that it is too many steps for them. But this is *completely* different use case than production environments. And we will not get out of the use case that people will write automation scripts. But instack will not help them with that because they will write very specific automation scripts on top of their production environments and they will use our CLI as the basis. We should focus on production environments first and then simplify for POCs. Not vice-versa. And not improving the scripts.